Feature: Community status metadata

[sjn]

Would it be meaningful to somehow distinguish defunct/hibernating groups from the ones that are active?

I haven't put much thought into this particular topic, but I guess CPANSec's attempt at a list of project conditions may be an inspiration?

[jhannah]

If you're aware of inactive groups, I'll deactivate them. I don't police the groups, but I deactivate sleeping ones when they're brought to my attention. Generally speaking if a group's website is down, or 1+ years out of date, and there's no mailing list activity then I deactivate them. I notify the group leader so they can correct the problem(s), at which time I reactivate them. e.g. #184

[sjn]

Yeah, "policing" is not what I'm talking about.

I'm proposing adding some extra metadata fields so the people who are organising a group can share organisational matters with people in their area beyond the obvious existential stuff.

[jhannah]

Oh, ok, sure. What do you want to add? https://www.pm.org/faq/admin.html#xml

[sjn]

Oh, ok, sure. What do you want to add? https://www.pm.org/faq/admin.html#xml

A bit unsure, so I guess I'd love to start with a short exploration of the topic?

To get it going, I'm thinking it would be good to distinguish between help that a group needs from what it wants.

For example,

• Need: Main organizer(s)
• Need: Event co-organizers (maybe different roles: Social, Technical, Large)
• Want: SoMe/outreach contributors
• Want: Community manager/DevRel
• Want: OSPO & Recruiters Liaison

I guess there are other tasks or roles... Can you think of any?

[jhannah]

Don't let me dissuade you from whatever you want to do. Go for it! Extend the DTD as you like. 🙂

That said, my personal thoughts are that:

• Every inactive group needs 1+ main organizers. We don't need a fancier spec for that, it's already clear because the group is inactive.
• Every active group is, presumably, reaching out to their local group members about their internal needs, via whatever communication vectors they use. I don't see any value in the pm.org international website having complicated standardized data specifications for storing those needs.
• I could be wrong. 🙂

[ranguard]

That level of meta information really does feel like it's useful to each individual group - and that's what their mailing lists (or how ever they communicate) are for...

Putting it centrally - it will just be out of date before you begin!

[sjn]

• Every inactive group needs 1+ main organizers. We don't need a fancier spec for that, it's already clear because the group is inactive.

I'm unsure if it's clear enough. My experience is that most businesses that use Open Source don't really follow their communities close enough to realize this.

So for me, this suggestion is more about making "tribal" knowledge like this visible and available for everyone, rather than adding to the fanciness of the spec. 😅

• Every active group is, presumably, reaching out to their local group members about their internal needs, via whatever communication vectors they use. I don't see any value in the pm.org international website having complicated standardized data specifications for storing those needs.

I can't claim knowledge about how things are done across most of the Perl Mongers, but my impression about the few I've been exposed to, is that...

1. Groups usually lose activities gently and quietly, mostly because some core contributors or "doers" find something else/better to do.
2. Very few groups seem to have a active sense (not to speak of plans) around succession planning.
3. One of the biggest drawbacks of this particular community is (I'm sad to point out) the notion that you profess about the usefulness of centralized resources. While this type of "anarchic" way of operating has many fantastic features (e.g. everyone is free to spend their efforts according to their own will, and all the good stuff that stems from this), it also makes cooperation and coordination so much harder - to the point that it becomes tedious to even try. And those who attempt to things happen anyway, have to struggle with an incredibly difficult "market" to reach out with their ideas and efforts.

To address this, my proposal isn't intended as a "silver bullet", but instead just one of several improvements to how this community operates. (Another improvement could be exploring ways of regularly reaching out to the group organizers with relevant reminders and news about the site.)

• I could be wrong. 🙂

This is true for us all. 😅

(…or when I'm in a more poetic mood – "This is the human condition, is it not? 😅")

[sjn]

That level of meta information really does feel like it's useful to each individual group - and that's what their mailing lists (or how ever they communicate) are for...

Putting it centrally - it will just be out of date before you begin!

Maybe? I don't think a mail produces the same communicative effect as a status page though, so I'm not sure I agree with you.

You do have a point though. If metadata like these are to become useful, they'll have to be relevant, "recent enough", and easy to update as they change.

To find out what fields are needed for this to become relevant is the topic of this ticket. 😁

Finding ways to keep the fields' contents "recent enough" is both a question related to the typical update-frequency and "staticness" of any given field, and therefore also a topic for this ticket? 😄

And with regard to ways to update the fields... First, we already have a really good way of doing it (PR's to this repo), but I'm guessing the reason people don't do it is more related to ignorance of the possibility of this, or perhaps due to lack of people who care enough to do it? (assuming their ignorance has been addressed) In any case, I think that's a topic worth exploring it's own ticket. 🙂

[jhannah]

I think it would make sense to explore ways of regularly reaching out to the group organizers with relevant reminders and news about the site.

One resource you might not be aware of: There is still a Group Leaders Mailman list, so the ~230 Group Leaders can all email each other en masse whenever they want. https://www.pm.org/faq/admin.html#Mailman No one has posted to that list since ~2018.

From inside what might be my blind spot, I don't see how Perl folk outside Omaha could help me relaunch Omaha.pm even if I wanted to do that. If I wanted to do that, I should gather people in Omaha interested in Perl. I'm not aware that there are any anymore. All the nerd events I attend, I'm known as the Perl guy, haven't found others. (I found one Raku hobbyist once, which blew my mind, but they didn't want to attend any local meetup, and have since moved.)

(Not just Perl, this is also true of Omaha Python and Golang. I've been chatting on local nerd boards about (re-)starting a group for those languages too, have gathered zero interest.)

[oalders]

nerd boards

Learned a new term today. 😅

[sjn]

One resource you might not be aware of: There is still a Group Leaders Mailman list, so the ~230 Group Leaders can all email each other en masse whenever they want. https://www.pm.org/faq/admin.html#Mailman No one has posted to that list since ~2018.

Hm. I can't seem to log in there, and I'm getting a 500-error when accessing the "Unsubscribe or edit options" form on the pm_groups list page. Are you in a position to investigate?

From inside what might be my blind spot, I don't see how Perl folk outside Omaha could help me relaunch Omaha.pm even if I wanted to do that. If I wanted to do that, I should gather people in Omaha interested in Perl. I'm not aware that there are any anymore. All the nerd events I attend, I'm known as the Perl guy, haven't found others. (I found one Raku hobbyist once, which blew my mind, but they didn't want to attend any local meetup, and have since moved.)

Yeah, I guess your story may be a common one. Still, maybe it's worth shifting the perspective a little, in order to think anew on some of these issues?

For example:

• With the upcoming regulations around cybersecurity (NIS2, CRA, EO 14028), there's going to be a need for people that can help get old Perl applications compliant – and to find these individuals, Perl Mongers can play a meaningful role – if these communities are known of, findable and responsive.
• Recruiting companies are still struggling finding Perl devs, and can still be made easier if this is done with community assistance, rather than how it's done now.
• The act of finding communities is the twin of the act of making communities findable – and this is where a resource like pm.org can help everyone.
• People move. A developer with some Open Source exposure might get a job in Omaha; How easily will they find Omaha.pm? This is also the case for any other city/PM group. Maybe it's better to assume unawareness among the target demographics, and work from there?

My point is that "Open Source Community" is a topic that's going to become more and more relevant for businesses (since FOSS Security is not possible without a FOSS Community), and this can – if we play our cards carefully before then – be used to help revive the communities nearby these businesses. 😁

(Not just Perl, this is also true of Omaha Python and Golang. I've been chatting on local nerd boards about (re-)starting a group for those languages too, have gathered zero interest.)

Ooof. I can relate with this too. There seems to be a lot of "bystanderism" going on, it seems. Or a lack of interest in community building/care/sustainability in general? 😞

[sjn]

Huh. Seems I was removed from pm_groups in 2009, and I didn't even notice 😅

But sure, that sounds like a good place to announce some updates and/or run a survey about community status metadata.

[jhannah]

Re: https://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pm_groups

Hm. I can't seem to log in there, and I'm getting a 500-error when accessing the "Unsubscribe or edit options" form on the pm_groups list page. Are you in a position to investigate?

Yup. Are you a group leader? I don't see Nilsen in our XML file of group leaders... That list is for group leaders. If you're leading a group I can add you (and fix our XML file?).

Recruiting companies are still struggling finding Perl devs, and can still be made easier if this is done with community assistance, rather than how it's done now.

They are? I'm looking for a job. Any links to Perl telecommuting jobs would be great! ❤️

The act of finding communities is the twin of the act of making communities findable – and this is where a resource like pm.org can help everyone.

That's what pm.org does, right? It shows anyone looking for a group where the active groups are?

People move. A developer with some Open Source exposure might get a job in Omaha; How easily will they find Omaha.pm? This is also the case for any other city/PM group. Maybe it's better to assume unawareness among the target demographics, and work from there?

I mean... Can I at least have dibs on applying for the first Omaha Perl job before we open it up to global competition? 😉 They can pass on me, that's fine, but I'd at least like to apply. I hired a Perl dev in Omaha in 2003... he said that was super rare, even back then.

Ooof. I can relate with this too. There seems to be a lot of "bystanderism" going on, it seems. Or a lack of interest in community building/care/sustainability in general? 😞

Broadly, there seems to be less interest in nerd meetups since covid. And broadly, Perl / Python / Golang appear to be less used, or used by people disinterested in physical meetups. (Which is fine. I get it. Jobs can be exhausting, maybe the last thing you want after 40 hours of coding is more coding / computer talk.)

Again, don't let me dissuade you from extending our perl_mongers.dtd. Go for it! I'd love to find out that I'm wrong. Let me know how I can help.

[jhannah]

Huh. I got a "pending subscriptions" email (Salve J. Nilsen) Tue Aug 13 02:46:56 2024, but I logged in and:

There are no pending requests.

Did you want to be on the list?

[sjn]

Seems https://www.pm.org/faq/admin.html already has a status attribute as part of the group elements. I can see the following ones:

• active
• inactive
• sleeping
• undef
• dead
• mlb
• leb
• gone
• unknown
• spam
• disbanded to make room for other groups -jhannah 20061203
• on hold
• Vetoed by Robert. See RT 57812.

Together with these, quite a few have XML comments associated with them.

So, for a first few fixes, I think it would be smart to to this..

1. consolidate the status values into a limited set of enums that clearly communicate what the current state of the group is.
   • bring your ideas! 😁
2. introduce structured comments for noting an update's contributor name, timestamp and comment
   • e.g. <changelog timestamp="2010.05.22" comment="Les reported that they become inactive as there was little participation" contributor="szabgab" />)
   • this could also be used for providing a reason for a status change
3. introduce a new element for each group, that allows for a group leader (or support person, or other volunteer, maybe?) to communicate group needs (meaning – how they are looking to change, and what they need to do this), perhaps starting with my examples in Feature: Community status metadata #193 (comment) ?

What do you guys think?